Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum I wonder what the future holds? I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. 9mm will not drop a target unless you hit the CNS.a buddy of mine took a 9mm straight through the head through his eyeball from about 20 yards away. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. CHEERS. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. THAT shot better make a change. All rights reserved. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. So they downvote actual biological functions here. They are a secondary source at best. We had a good chuckle out of that one. I cant compare to 9mm but I still want to carry 45acp. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. For a tommygun, I'd probably go with 1d8 base damage, +1 magical weapon bonus to represent penetration and damage, and the ability to make a cone area attack (save or take damage). When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. S&W was required to announce it due to SEC requirements as they are one of the only publicly-owner companies. But ideally you need a brush rifle. This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. Thats why were here right? When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. Category:Human body Makes no difference to me. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. What you provide is false true and true. For those not in the military, go for what you want. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. Possible off hand 200. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. You could smell the gunpowder. Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. Project: Aftermath Wiki. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. I have several calibers, personally I like my Sig 239 40cal as my sidearm ! WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. 9mm vs .45 ACP [Debate Finally Settled] - Pew Pew Tactical Thank you Bill ! The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. Take it from me, a physics major. Black Talon and Todays Best Self-Defense Ammo Not aim shoot. The objective of this study was to construct a U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. Everything I understand and everything I have read and looked into if persons really going to throw down its going to be less than 15 yards and closer, at that point and Im just being honest I dont even use my rear sights once I get within 10 yards of a silhouette Im just going off at the front sight Focus and thats it, I compensate for the offset not using the rear sights by dropping the front sight a couple inches lower to anticipate the recoil and it is very accurate. Symptoms finds relevant news, identifies important training information, WebYes, definitely. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com for all the same reasons. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. The Glock 17/19 could be a possibility as well, though, as there are plenty of them already in the inventory, and the P320 also seemed destined for the FBI (which had similar requirements), but they suddenly settled on the Glock at the last minute. But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. Damage: 62. It stood there looking at me. Officer needs help!! We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. 0.38" Special P, 158 gr non-expanding bullet will, unless it strikes a bone, pass straight through a human body. I seen it first hand as well. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. The victim died immediately. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. You do your failure drill. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. Your shot placement will be perfect. When the. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to A 35-45 psi The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. ACP Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the So, as so many have said above, it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you plan to be doing with it. Body I am a classic ). If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. You get Into a real shooting scenario. Come On People!! Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! Now as far as the technology of rounds go, technology has improved for all of the basic calibers including 45 so there is no advantage there for the 9. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. I'll tell you what DOES impact penetrationit is the frontal area of the bullet and its relative friction and resistance as it impacts a body and attempts to travel through. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. Train, train train and when your done. too powerful??? The science says otherwise. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. So in other words, Science is also getting a kick back just so the 9mm gets so called, scientific proof! Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. With practice almost anything is possible. Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. 9mm beats .45acp. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. Copyright 2023 By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. The results may surprise many as it did myself. There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. Damage: 22 per pellet. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. The body's liver, pancreas and kidneys also can make about 1 gram of creatine per day. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. Last summer had a large male black bear tried to enter my camper. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. So its definitely capable. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. AND.carry what YOU are comfortable and accurate with. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. You fire lots and lots of them through das maschinepistole and drown em in hot metal until they fall down and stop trying to kill you. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. Thanks. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. Have you ever saw the wound track from a .230 hst. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. In Walmart I carry a p99 Walter. Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special 45 The beautiful country in south east Asia. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. To me the rest dont count. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. Youve been practicing with your weapon on a consistent basis. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec.