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But when our theories about how god works become more beloved to us than God himself, theyre just idols. I always try to be sensitive, and Ive communicated before that I agree that theology should take a backseat. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. I might get around to it, at some point. He said I was wrong. It is only required that we do not demean each other while in argument. If its only might that makes right, right can be abused by caprice. @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. list of non calvinist theologiansleap year program in python using for loop. I am not familiar with the guy in the video or the people behind that You Tube channel, nor have I investigated who they are and what they believe, so I may not be in agreement with all their views. Calvinism did not start with John Calvin. Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. If theyre not slaughtering each other, theyre blowing up each others Mosques so to speak. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. Why can we not focus on God and Jesus and what He did for us? Plus I had never heard of tongues). I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. whats so complicated about that? Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. Lewis, Alan Walker, Gregory Boyd, Denny Weaver, J. Burkholder, John Roth, Mark Thiessen, George McDonald, G.K. Chesterton, #5 JonC, Feb 9, 2018 Like x 1 JonC Moderator Moderator Joined: Aug 28, 2001 Messages: 29,185 There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. The Greatest 20th Century Theologians I cant make it all fit so I go with what I honestly believe and hold loosely to the conclusions. He beat me to the punch. Can Calvinist and non-Calvinist Baptists work together? Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. Like you, I only care about what scripture says. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. Paul Ellingworth William G. MacDonald James Strauss Philip Towner John Wenham Gary Habermas Nigel Turner Max Turner Peter Cotterell (?) Jesus wept. If you mean that those that God does not elect to save will definitely be condemned yes, since there is no other way they can be saved, they, in a sense, are elected to be condemned for their sins. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . I am a Christian. He sets a great example and I appreciate his ability to charitable in discussing beliefs that others dont believe or accept. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. Yet, their theology is reformed. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. I think Christendom could profit greatly from more women in the pulpit. Our Beliefs - SOTERIOLOGY 101 How one can be labeled an Arminian after a decade and a half as an SGM bobblehead is beyond me. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. List of 20th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians - FamousFix List If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? But so what. Michael Brown David Jeremiah Dave Hunt J. W. MacGorman E. Y. Mullins Herschel Hobbs W. T. Conner Frank Stagg Fisher Humphreys Bert Dominy Ken Keathley Norm Geisler Alister McGrath David Bentley Hart Mike Licona You do not have to stay in a church that does not respect your point of view. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. who needs systems & neat little boxes? Prayer Requests This is a false dichotomy. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. The rule about not eating the fruit was just as much an opportunity for Adam/Eve to choose good as it was to choose evil. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. @ Steve D: I have not had that experience. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Keep in mind, until the last 7 years, I had no reason to view Calvinism with any sort of negativity. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. I am not saying that Calvinists are going to hell or anything radical like that. But I dont think I have to pick. Green 27. Another thank you, this time for writing tenet instead of tenant. Anyway, if this means that God made you say the words, and made you think the thoughts that led to them, this is not what Calvin believed, though I think Hyper-Calvinists believe this. Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. This was no emotional, short term thing. This is not the way toward peace. I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. The reformed assume the posture that they alone safeguard Gods honor. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. I am a non-Calvinist (not quite an Arminian either) who lives and moves and has my being amongst Calvinists, the overwhelmingly dominant brand in my neck of the woods. Or reformed, predestined, predestination, sovereignty,. View all posts by Joshua Wu Kai-Ming. It does mean that Calvinist and non-Calvinist Christians alike will have a far more difficult time sitting under the Word of God together when both sides appeal to the nuclear arsenal of the World Wide Web. Excellent work! I had no intention of saying that non Calvinists read the scriptures to suit their own fancy. I intended to contrast believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their reading of Scripture, and believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their own counsel, on what they *feel* is true. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. The Arminian Bible Commentary: Parallel Commentary on Hundreds of @ Katie: Advocate & Solicitor of the High Court of Malaya. I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. I think this post was a great step toward making those folks feel more welcome. We can just debate doctrine. The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. Jeff S, you said this: If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right.. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. Enter fatalistic determinism. (Cue Calvinists crowing in predestined triumph) If the Institutes were a lifes work, Id expect a little length. I became involved in the Way my freshman year in college here in N.C. (Greensboro). Learn more or donate today at crossway.org/about . Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. But I think you have said that you have never read The Institutes. And when I talk of Calvinism, Im not talking about the way he viewed the authority of the church. William Hendriksen (18 November 1900 - 12 January 1982) was a New Testament scholar and . Top 20 Christian Apologists - Cross Examined He shouldnt be let out of his cage yet. @ Muff Potter: We can connect on our shared faith and heart for the abused. How wonderful to remember those days! But my point wasnt to proof text Calvin. Do you know how many people want to prove to me that they are correct? The idea that we are mindless automatons going through Gods motions is not what Calvinists, now or historically, have ever believed. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. Oy. Then I discovered I was not, and it was like a moment of deliverance from a mighty weight that had been pressing me down. I can completely understand why people would want to flee from that garbage- I want to flee from it too. In fact, with respect and not intending to hurt feelings, it is the Calvinists who are misrepresenting their own doctrine by refusing to acknowledge the contradictions (whichthey do this by arguing that truth really cant be known). Old Pollyannasdie hard. Im not saying thats being done intentionally- that is why Im seeking to clarify what I (and others with similar beliefs) believe. The response to an authoritarian and oppressive environment is not to create another one where Calvinism is not tolerated. Notice the implicit point: only THEY really bring glory to God. List of non-calvinist denominations? : r/Christianity - reddit Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. * Okay, end of sermon. Sois that what we are saying? Lin wrote: @ Daisy: An infant does not want, nor desire steak. A must-read article from Christa Browns blog: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, Im sorry that I was not clear. Olson coined the label "Pannenberg's Principle" forWolfhart Pannenberg's argument (1969) that God's deity is his rule "The divinity of God and the reign of God in the world are inseparable."[6]. As a woman in ministry you represent the focus of much of the Neo-Calvinist YRR contempt, and when you overcome that evil with good, then Jesus is visible. I think people are blaming a theology when the real evil is in the hearts of men. Do you share these thoughts? This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. Does not a little yeast leaven the whole batch? But that doesnt mean that the beliefs are necessarily untrue. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. Theology needs to take the back seat when it comes to comforting the abused. "I want to have a discussion with you. The list consists of 89 members. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. Theology - Roger Olson, Jack Cottrell (restorationist inerrantist), Thomas Oden, Ergun Caner, Paige Patterson, Michael Brown Also, anything written by Satan Notthemama1984 Puritan Board Post-Graduate Nov 12, 2010 #7 I personally have no respect for Geisler. With the Internet, you never know. Until about 6 years ago, I never, once, had any conflict with those who are Reformed. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html. Your blog has been extremely helpful to me as well, in sorting many things out. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. I dont know. No. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. Calvinism | Desiring God They are harmed by the teachings they sat under and then accused of misrepresentation when they blog about it. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. Thousands of contemporary Calvinists cut their theological teeth on the teachings of Sproul and MacArthur and their respective ministries, Ligonier and Grace to You . This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. Lists of Christian theologians - Wikipedia It is a goal of this blog to extendthe dialog to include Calvinists and even find areas with which we can agree. 14 William Lane Craig God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. Concerning double predestination: If by it you mean that God makes people sin so that he can judge them and send them to hell no, I dont think the Bible says that. I used to have the same problem talking with, or debating Roman Catholics, online. Or at least they start to think they have the powers and rights (divine?) My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. Its a tough line to walk, though. I check out on their sub and they lile John Calvin and said that his theologybwas a major necessity to make their 33(?) Remember, Calvinism is merely the invoking of associative meaning, not real meaning. Best Overall non calvinist systematic theology: This non calvinist systematic theology is the king of the hill. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God, and our salvation and love for others is a part of that. Should that be will be a Calvinist since that is in the future?!?!?! Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. John Calvin | Biography, Beliefs, Predestination, Writings - Britannica I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. He should be a great example to you. His Kingdom and Church were to be completely separate from civil governance. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s.